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Rivian R1T is the electric pickup truck the world needs

Discussion in 'R1T' started by Domenick, Nov 26, 2018.

  1. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator
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    Aug 10, 2017
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  2. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator
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    Aug 10, 2017
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  3. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu F1 Rookie

    Oct 9, 2017
    2,671
    It's fantastic to finally see some details on Rivian's light truck! I won't call it it a "pickup", not with a bed even shorter than a "super short" pickup bed. I'll call it an SUT (Sport Utility Truck), like the Honda Ridgeline.

    I think Rivian has made some smart design choices. Putting in a bed that short will discourage people from using it to haul really heavy loads, which would cut down a lot on the EV range.

    Of course, that will more or less limit the market to the "suburban cowboy" crowd, rather than those who want a practical pickup for hauling or offroading, but nothing wrong with starting out by aiming for that market segment. Just like Tesla with the Model S, Rivian doesn't have to capture the entire market with their first mass-produced vehicle; they just have to sell every one they make!

    * * * * *

    There wasn't much forum discussion of Rivian before this thread was created, but for those who want to see the sparse pre-reveal discussion, it can be found here:

    Rivan Automotive


     
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  4. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator
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    Aug 10, 2017
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    With the tailgate down, it can still handle a pretty mighty load of 4X8 plywood, or what have you. I, too, bemoan, the short beds in today's trucks but when people insist on using it like a car, I guess 4 doors are necessary. Back in the day, I used to say if it's got more than 2 doors, it's no longer a pickup truck, but I've convinced myself to just let it go.

    Regarding the original Rivian thread, I've moved it into this new section as well. There isn't yet an official forum for would-be owners, so I really, really hope we can make this a welcoming place they can call home.
     
  5. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu F1 Rookie

    Oct 9, 2017
    2,671
    Thank you for your diligent work in keeping this forum organized, Domenick! Much appreciated.
    :)

    Well, I don't plan to get into any arguments over the semantics of calling the Rivian RT1 an "SUT" vs. calling it a "pickup". Rivian is calling it a "pickup", so me saying it's not is basically swimming upstream against a strong current. That is, I'm not likely to make any progress that way. ;)

    If Rivian can convince people the RT1 is a "pickup" despite its extra-extra-extra short bed, and if that will help them sell more RT1s, then more power to Rivian! Their success in the market is important, and the semantics of what does or doesn't fit in the pigeonhole labeled "pickup" or the pigeonhole labeled "SUT"... isn't.

    Fortunately, it being a free country, I can continue to call the RT1 a "SUT" rather than a "pickup"; the Grammar Gestapo are not gonna come and take me away, no matter how many people call this light truck a "pickup".
    ;)
     
  6. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator
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    Aug 10, 2017
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  7. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu F1 Rookie

    Oct 9, 2017
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    #8 Pushmi-Pullyu, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
    I think the Bollinger B1 is the one with the frunk which is going to be hard to beat!

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    If a "tailgate" is on the front, does that make it a frontgate? ;)

    Anyway, I think putting a gate at the front of a BEV's front storage space is brilliant!
     
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  8. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator
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    Aug 10, 2017
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    That is an awesome frunk, to be honest. They're going to have to have a frunk off.
     
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  9. RLXXI

    RLXXI Rookie

    Nov 26, 2018
    49
    New Orleans
    Stoked to see where this is headed. Hopefully it won't wind up in a void like the Persu Venture vehicle. I registered for that vehicle as an early purchase and was ready to buy one 5 years ago. The website is still there but the vehicle was never realized for some odd reason. www.flytheroad.com if your curious what I'm talking about. So I bought an F150.

    I'd like to see a super cab version of this truck so it has a realistic cargo (bed) space. Don't need a people hauler, need a cargo hauler.
     
  10. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu F1 Rookie

    Oct 9, 2017
    2,671
    :) :) :)

    Are you sure the term "frunk off" is safe for work?
    ;)

     
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  11. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu F1 Rookie

    Oct 9, 2017
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    What was I thinking?!?! :eek:

    The correct term, of course, should be headgate.
    o_O
     
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  12. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Karting

    Jan 23, 2018
    181
    The R1T can tow 11,000 pounds. It has four 147kW motors.
     
  13. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu F1 Rookie

    Oct 9, 2017
    2,671
    It will be interesting to see if the production version has 4 motors. There have been several prototype BEVs which used 4 in-wheel or axle motors, rather than "inboard" motors. For example, the prototype Mitsubishi i-MiEV had in-wheel motors.

    But such placement is pretty hard on the motors; it subjects them to a lot of wear-and-tear, and a lot of exposure to dust and grit from the road. It also significantly increases the unsprung weight that the suspension has to handle. For those reasons and others (such as higher cost), so far as I know, no production BEV has yet used in-wheel or axle motors.

    We'll have to wait and see if the production RT1 is an exception to that rule. IEVs chief editor Steven Loveday says this is the production version. But with production about two years away, things may change.

    I'll be following the development of Rivian's vehicles closely. I certainly hope they succeed in selling a popular SUT, whether it has 4 motors or just two!
    :)
     
  14. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu F1 Rookie

    Oct 9, 2017
    2,671
    That's a cavernous frunk on the RT1, all right!

    [​IMG]

    And if some EV basher doesn't agree, we can just tell them to frunk off.
    ;)
     
  15. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Karting

    Jan 23, 2018
    181
    The car you are thinking off that Mitsubishi was involved in, that had hub motors came out after the i MiEV. The i MiEV is a conversion of a Kei car, and it only has a 49kW motor.
     
  16. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu F1 Rookie

    Oct 9, 2017
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    No, I'm thinking of the i-MiEV, whose pre-production prototype(s) -- as I said -- had in-wheel motors.

    From Wikipedia:

    MIEV (Mitsubishi In-wheel motor Electric Vehicle) or MiEV (Mitsubishi innovative Electric Vehicle) is the name given by Japanese automaker Mitsubishi Motors (MMC) to its alternative propulsion technologies. From late 2006, “MiEV” encompasses all of Mitsubishi Motors’s electric drive systems work, including lithium-ion batteries, in-wheel motors and other technologies related to electric vehicle(EV), hybrid-electric vehicle and fuel-cell vehicles.

    The Mitsubishi In-wheel motor was first introduced in the Mitsubishi Colt EV, a Colt-based concept car first exhibited at 2005 Tokyo Motor Show which used a series of lithium-ion batteries to power electric motors located in the wheels. Subsequent electrically powered vehicles have included a 200 kW Lancer Evolution, and a battery-equipped Mitsubishi i kei car (i-MIEV).

     
  17. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator
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    Aug 10, 2017
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    Mitsubishi was all about the in-wheel motors back then. In their concepts, at least.

    At any rate, pretty sure the Rivian doesn't in-wheel motors. I'm casting about looking for a shot of the underside, though.
     
  18. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu F1 Rookie

    Oct 9, 2017
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    Okay, then what kind of motors are they? Axle motors? Or are they actually 4 separate inboard motors connected to each wheel independently by separate sets of reduction gears and separate axles or half-shafts? (Is that the right term for front wheel drive axles: "half-shaft"?)

     
  19. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator
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    I'm told they're relatively small units that sit beside each other in the space where the differential would be. I imagine they are connected to axles, which are then connected to CV axles closer to the wheel.
     
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  20. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu F1 Rookie

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    #21 Pushmi-Pullyu, Nov 28, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
    One problem with using in-wheel motors or axle motors is that limits the motor to running at exactly the same RPM speed as the wheels. Generally speaking, electric motors work more efficiently and more smoothly when they are run at higher speed, which is why most EVs have the electric motor connected to the drivetrain with a reduction gearset, to allow the motor to run at a higher speed than the wheels.

    Electric motors which run at the (relatively) slow speed of the wheels also have problems with cogging:

    Cogging torque of electrical motors is the [torque] due to the interaction between the permanent magnets of the rotor and the stator slots of a Permanent Magnet (PM) machine... Cogging torque is an undesirable component for the operation of such a motor. It is especially prominent at lower speeds, with the symptom of jerkiness [when used to propel a vehicle, rather than smooth forward motion]. -- Wikipedia
    If the R1T (I mistakenly called it the "RT1" above) and the R1S have 4 smaller inboard motors, then does each have a separate reduction gearset to avoid the various problems of limiting an electric motor to running at the same RPM speed as the wheels? Or does Rivian accept all the problems and limitations of slaving the speed of the motors to that of the wheels?

    Either way, the problems associated with using 4 separate motors are going to drive up the complexity and cost of the vehicle, and possibly or even probably make it more prone to mechanical breakdown.

    As I've implied, I won't be at all surprised if Rivian switches to two inboard electric motors for the production vehicle.
     
  21. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator
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    I left out the reduction gears from that equation. Anyway, here is a shot of the R1T skateboard where you can just make out the motors in the front.
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  22. RLXXI

    RLXXI Rookie

    Nov 26, 2018
    49
    New Orleans
    I spy cv axle shafts. Which is closer to a standard design that's been in use for decades. Nice.
     
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  23. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator
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    Here's a better look from the underside.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  24. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu F1 Rookie

    Oct 9, 2017
    2,671
    Thanks Domenick! :)

    Obviously those are inboard twin motors using, as RLXXI said, CV joints enable the drive half-shafts to carry power to the wheels... which I believe is the standard setup for front-wheel-drive cars and light trucks.

    But I don't know enough about EV powertrains to be able to tell, from that photo, if there are reduction gearsets between the motors and the drive half-shafts in that photo. I've seen photos of such gearsets but I don't know how large they are. Obviously they are far simpler, and thus can be much smaller, than a gasmobile's multi-gear transmission, but I don't know how much smaller.

     

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